If you're reading this, you are aware of and probably concerned about the depletion of earth's finite fossil fuel resources, on which modern technological civilization is almost completely dependent, popularly called "Peak Oil" or PO for short. Good for you! By becoming aware of the issue and seeking to learn about it, you are already ahead of the vast majority of people. By trying to find out what, if anything, you can do about it, you're even further ahead. I'm betting you are more likely than average to be open-minded and someone who thinks for him/herself. My advice: don't stop thinking for yourself by adopting without question the dogma of PO doomerism.
I consider myself to be a person of above-average intelligence and a critical thinker, and yet I was sucked in by the 21rst century's equivalent of a doomsday cult. I was ripe for the picking.
I first became aware of the unsustainability of modern civilization in the 1970s, during the so-called oil shocks. I was a kid, but reasonably bright and with a scientific bent, so I read almost everything I could find on energy in general and oil in particular. What I discovered wasn't comforting. We had just 30 years of oil left! We needed it for all the chemicals and plastic things I had previously taken for granted. And here I was, burning this valuable stuff up in Dad's lawnmower! There had to be a better way.
I looked at renewables, but at the time, they all looked like losers. I wouldn't hear the term EROEI (Energy Returned On Energy Input) for another 30 years, but even a teenager could see that if you put more energy into something than you could expect to get out of it, it wasn't going to solve the problem. That was true for alcohol fuels, and it was true for solar (photovoltaic) panels. Fusion power sounded good but again even a teenager could see that if you don't yet know how to make something work, it would be foolish to gamble the future on figuring it out in time.
Then I found coal and nuclear power. There was lots of coal, at the time, 500 years worth. And nuclear power, we couldn't ever run out of that (not necessarily true, but I believed it at the time). I had the answer - we were saved! You see, I liked modern technology, and I still do - to me, it was (and is) worth saving. I set the snooze alarm for 1990 (a few years before the oil was due to run out) and more-or-less forgot the whole thing.
In 1987, I first heard about global warming. This was surprising since during the 70s I remember people saying we were heading into a new ice age. Still, I looked at the CO2 and temperature data, and it did seem as if the cooling trend had ended and the earth was gradually warming up, and of course the rise in CO2 levels was clear as a bell. Although the causal relationship was yet unproven, it seemed to me that we'd be better safe than sorry, and so this just looked like another good reason to cut down on using fossil fuels. Unfortunately, mainstream thought seemed to have gone strongly against nuclear power, apparently (to me, having read a lot about it) without much more reason than that Hollywood had made it the spawn of the devil. Since I had already concluded renewables weren't going to do the job, I was resigned to the idea that we would burn through the remaining fossil resources until there weren't two carbon atoms left clinging together, and only then switch to nuclear power.
By the mid-90s it was time for my wake-up call. I discovered and started reading BP's world energy report. The forecast oil doomsday hadn't occurred, in fact there was a comfortable increase in the reserve numbers and the R/P (Reserve-to-Production) ratio had expanded to 40 years. It was beginning to look like this wasn't going to be a problem in my lifetime. The price of oil had crashed and headlines talked about an oil glut. All this extra oil was good news, but it looked as if, instead of counting our blessings at having another century or so of petro-chemical production, the US was hell-bent on burning it up in monstrous, wasteful trucks. What happened to the conservation programs? And when exactly were we going to start building nuclear plants? What about global warming?
About ten years later, I was debating energy issues with one of my greenie friends at dinner. While we both agreed on the need to kick the fossil fuel habit, her contention was that we could get all the energy we needed from renewable sources, whereas I was convinced that we needed nukes because renewables were a Hollywood eco-fantasy and that if you "did the math", you'd probably need a solar cell the size of the entire desert southwest to meet the energy needs of the US. She challenged me to prove that, so off I went to the web to do some research. In doing so, I found...
LifeAfterTheOilCrash (LATOC), Matt Savinar's oil doomsday site. It knocked me out of my chair. Everything I had believed for over 30 years was true, only it was worse than I thought! I had thought that even though we appeared to be stupidly squandering our fossil resources instead of switching to new energy sources, we still had, well, 40 more years to get our act together. But I had foolishly assumed that we could keep producing oil at today's rate until we got close to the end, at which point there would be a steep drop to zero. In fact, though, it was much more likely that a gradual decline in production would set in well before the end, and that while the oil would never completely "run out", production levels far below the ones needed to keep our present technology running would be devastating. Doh!
That's like finding out that the exam you haven't studied for is being given tomorrow morning. But that wasn't the worst of it. LATOC makes the case that it's too late to switch to new energy sources because the effort of switching will itself take energy, energy we won't have as oil production declines. LATOC also argues that we can't get enough energy from the alternatives to power our civilization at current levels. It knocks them down one by one. In short, too little, too late, to save technological civilization. But that still wasn't the worst of it. LATOC makes the point that the so-called green revolution that has enabled us to feed the world's booming population is entirely based on fossil fuels. As bad as it would be to see technology collapse, the doomsday scenario had expanded in the blink of an eye to include a dieoff of billions of people due to either starvation, or wars over the world's dwindling resources.
I went into a black despair. I became a doomer (hence the pseudonym). Well, I was sort-of a doomer - sort-of, because I'm not one to just surrender to fate. I soon learned that there were at least two different types of doomers, the fatalists and the powerdowners. The fatalists figure you might as well bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye. The powerdowners seemed to view the end of industrial civilization as a good thing and are looking forward to some sort of new agrarian age, albeit one where lots of people have to die to make room for the survivors. It's a little hard to tell them apart, frankly. Powerdowners claim to have a plan to wind down civilization to sustainable levels. But the plan seems to involve lots of people dying, and most of the survivors becoming a new peasantry. If you like modern technology and don't like death, that plan is hard to distinguish from the doomsday itself. Plus, powerdowners are convinved a powerdown is inevitable after wars and such have played themselves out - thus, fatalists are powerdowners who are foolishly not getting ready. One thing they have in common is the inevitability of the end of modern life.
As I said, I'm not one to surrender to fate. I had to do something. At the very least I could warn people! I told friends and family. I joined an on-line discussion group. I started looking at my own lifestyle to see what I could do to reduce my energy consumption. There wasn't much - after all, I'd been aware of the depletion issue for 30 years. I don't drive much, and I don't use much electricity. I avoid disposable plastic stuff. I recycle everything. I got a motorcycle license and a small motorbike to cut my driving even more. I put compact fluoresent bulbs in the lights I use. I started looking for inefficient appliances to cut my power needs even more.
I also continued my research into energy alternatives. After all, I still hadn't answered my friend's question about how big a solar cell it would take to run the US (answer: for electricity alone, it would be about 1/7 the size of Nevada, according to one solar power site). What I found was encouraging. Renewable technologies had advanced considerably since the 1970s when I'd last looked. Wind turbines had emerged as the most cost-competitive technology, and were being built in Europe. Even solar cells were no longer energy-losers; you could get back the energy needed to make them in a few years and then get decades of free power from them afterwards. Fuels made from waste products, or crops grown specifically for fuel, were energy winners now, given the right feedstock. In particular, vegetable oils could be used in diesel engines, and produced with an energy payback of 3 for 1. Brazil was making a go of ethanol from sugar. Nuclear power still looked attractive, despite decades of Hollywood's best efforts to brainwash me. And there was still lots of coal (250 years worth at today's production levels in the US, because we're burning it up faster than we were before). I started wondering just how impossible it really was to switch from fossil energy sources to a combination of these alternatives using coal to bridge the gap, and I started finding flaws in the logic behind LATOC. In due course, I found four whoppers.
First, doomers tacitly assume that anything short of our current energy consumption level would be catastrophic. They also count as a shortage the expected growth in energy demand from industrializing countries like China and India, perversely using an expansion of modern civilization (that they don't believe can occur!) as further proof that it will collapse. Truth is, there is tremendous waste in our current use of energy. A trip to the grocery store is like going to a monster truck rally these days. Is it really necessary to drive a 5000 pound vehicle to buy groceries? To go anywhere? Huge amounts of food are wasted. In fact, a lot of food is grown to feed animals for meat, a very inefficient way to produce food. (I like meat - I just don't eat that much of it.) We could cut back a lot and not miss it. In an emergency, we could cut back even more, just like we did to win World War Two. It wouldn't be much fun, but it would be possible, and no one would have to starve.
Doomers usually respond to this by making the silly argument that conservation won't work because of something called Jevon's paradox. In 1865, Jevon, writing about coal resources in England, argued that improving the efficiency of use of a resource would only cause demand to increase for the resource as the price dropped. Ergo, conservation causes demand to go up and you run out anyway. Doomers are dead wrong about conservation, though. In fact, surprise, they're dead wrong about what Jevon actually said, too. In the 1970s, conservation efforts and efficiency improvements in cars alone made a big dent in oil usage, enough that you can see it in the world's oil production statistics. Europe made the changes permanent by using taxes to keep demand down. The US didn't, so when the bottom dropped out of oil prices in later decades, we went back to our wasteful ways. Europeans use roughly half the oil per person than the US does. This all proves two things: conservation can enable us to get along with less oil if we have to, and people respond in predictable ways to price changes. Doomers forget that Jevon's so-called paradox assumed that the resource in question was still abundant. But once it runs short, all bets are off. If oil production started falling, the price is not going to go down unless demand goes down even faster. Even Jevon predicted that the price of coal would soar eventually, as the resource became scare in the 1930s - doomers don't know or don't mention that. Incidentally, Jevon was wrong about the end of coal spelling doom for industrial England - he couldn't forsee the switch to oil.
The second flaw is in assuming that because we use oil to do something now, we have no other way to do it. In particular, doomers argue that none of the alternatives will work because they all require oil to implement. Wind farms and nuclear plants require oil to produce the materials they're made from, to transport the materials to the site, and to run construction equipment. Electric cars take oil to manufacture. Even coal mines need oil to run mining machinery. Once we run out of oil, we won't be able to do any of those things anymore, goes the argument. The most obvious problem with the argument is that while these activities require energy, the energy doesn't have to come from oil. We use oil for many of them now because it's cheap and convenient, but that doesn't mean we can't use another energy source when oil's no longer cheap or available. Another problem with this argument is that many of these activities don't even use oil now! They use electricity or natural gas (natural gas will also eventually start to run short, but most likely a decade after oil does). The final problem with the argument is that if things really do start to get as bad as LATOC would have you believe, building energy infrastructure will have much higher priority that most of our present transportation uses. In an all-out emergency, rationing could be implemented giving first priority to food production, energy infrastructure, and long-distance transportation of goods, especially food. The annual road trip to see Aunt Tilly and the annual vacation getaway to the Caribbean would be below the line.
The third flaw in the argument is a bit more subtle. It is the assumption that the energy required to switch to alternatives must come on top of what we are using energy for now, rather than instead of some of it. For example, Savinar argues that we won't have the energy to power a crash program of building efficient cars. This ignores the fact that we are already building cars, millions of them every year. The energy used to build them is already counted; the energy needed to build efficient cars doesn't just add to the total. It takes roughly the same energy to build an efficient car as an inefficient one. It would take 10-15 years to turn over the automobile fleet - it doesn't have to happen all at once. Another example: we are today using energy to expand the infrastructure associated with oil consumption, things like roads, airports, and shopping malls. If things get as bad as LATOC says, we won't need those things anymore. That energy and construction equipment could be used to build power plants instead.
The fourth flaw in the argument is even more subtle. Perhaps you've guessed it by now. Doomers argue that there is no energy source we can switch to that can take oil's place in modern civilization. That might or might not be true, but it's beside the point. No single energy source has to, provided we can put enough of the others together. LATOC and others knock down alternatives one by one. But if (for example) we can produce biodiesel from fuel crops, why can't that be used to run construction machinery to build power stations? I've come to believe that no single energy source will take oil's place, but rather that by combining all the ones we know about, we can put together a workable solution that will be good enough to last 200 years or more - enough time for our descendants to come up with something else, or, if they can't, to gradually reduce their numbers without letting anyone starve.
By now, I had become what the doomers call an optimist, defined as anyone who doesn't think a collapse and dieoff are inevitable. I prefer to think of myself as a realist. The real optimists think the peak in oil production won't happen for another 10-20 years. They could be right, but it almost doesn't matter because we need to act now either way. A later peak just means we have more breathing room to get our act together. It's like finding out that exam you haven't studied for was postponed a week - you still need to study for it, only now you don't have to pull an all-nighter cramming! I personally think we're at or very near peak production now, on a plateau that will probably not be enough to satisfy the newly industrializing countries while supporting our wasteful usage.
I began to see the doomer viewpoint for what it is: dogma. A dogma is something you have to believe, without questioning it. And I began to see the hidden agenda of the powerdowners, namely, to bring about their utopian vision of the neo-agrarian society, no doubt with themselves its leaders. They know that most people won't willingly accept a return to centuries past, because most people are like me. We like our modern first-world lives! Some of us wish more people in the world could have the same lifestyle, even if it means sharing what's available a bit better. But if people can be convinced that a powerdown is as unavoidable as gravity, they may bring it about simply by surrendering to it and not looking for alternatives. Scratch the surface of the powerdowner philosophy, and you'll find Marxism dressed up in radical environmentalism.
The doomers may or may not be correct about our inability to switch the energy basis of our civilization, but their case is far from proven. The mere fact that people are debating what to do shows that a lot of people (even the doomers) don't believe the future is totally out of our hands. The track record of doomsday forecasts is poor - no one can really know the future. The smug certaintly of the doomers that they've got all the answers is what finally shook me out from their midst. The doomers are right about one thing - fossil energy sources aren't going to see us through the 21rst century. But if we don't change course soon, the way forward isn't going to be an agrarian utopia. It will be powered, at least in the US and for the remainder of my life, by coal. The environmental effects of that (primarily sea level rise from global warming) aren't the legacy I want to leave to future generations.
If going back to the land is appealing to you, that's terrific! No one's stopping you, or any of the doomers either. In fact, it's a good thing to have people make some worst-case preperations, just in case the doomers are right. But if, like me, you think technological and industrial civilization is something worth preserving, then let's get to work. Don't be fooled by doomer technobabble. This stuff isn't really too hard for the average person to understand. Look for yourself. And not just at the self-serving prophets of doom, many of whom simply cite each other in a kind of circular support system. Check your prejudices at the door and actually look at sites from the nuclear power industry, renewable power advocates, and environmentalists. Sift them for biases to get to the facts. And keep thinking for yourself.
-- by Doctor Doom
peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/200...html
I consider myself to be a person of above-average intelligence and a critical thinker, and yet I was sucked in by the 21rst century's equivalent of a doomsday cult. I was ripe for the picking.
I first became aware of the unsustainability of modern civilization in the 1970s, during the so-called oil shocks. I was a kid, but reasonably bright and with a scientific bent, so I read almost everything I could find on energy in general and oil in particular. What I discovered wasn't comforting. We had just 30 years of oil left! We needed it for all the chemicals and plastic things I had previously taken for granted. And here I was, burning this valuable stuff up in Dad's lawnmower! There had to be a better way.
I looked at renewables, but at the time, they all looked like losers. I wouldn't hear the term EROEI (Energy Returned On Energy Input) for another 30 years, but even a teenager could see that if you put more energy into something than you could expect to get out of it, it wasn't going to solve the problem. That was true for alcohol fuels, and it was true for solar (photovoltaic) panels. Fusion power sounded good but again even a teenager could see that if you don't yet know how to make something work, it would be foolish to gamble the future on figuring it out in time.
Then I found coal and nuclear power. There was lots of coal, at the time, 500 years worth. And nuclear power, we couldn't ever run out of that (not necessarily true, but I believed it at the time). I had the answer - we were saved! You see, I liked modern technology, and I still do - to me, it was (and is) worth saving. I set the snooze alarm for 1990 (a few years before the oil was due to run out) and more-or-less forgot the whole thing.
In 1987, I first heard about global warming. This was surprising since during the 70s I remember people saying we were heading into a new ice age. Still, I looked at the CO2 and temperature data, and it did seem as if the cooling trend had ended and the earth was gradually warming up, and of course the rise in CO2 levels was clear as a bell. Although the causal relationship was yet unproven, it seemed to me that we'd be better safe than sorry, and so this just looked like another good reason to cut down on using fossil fuels. Unfortunately, mainstream thought seemed to have gone strongly against nuclear power, apparently (to me, having read a lot about it) without much more reason than that Hollywood had made it the spawn of the devil. Since I had already concluded renewables weren't going to do the job, I was resigned to the idea that we would burn through the remaining fossil resources until there weren't two carbon atoms left clinging together, and only then switch to nuclear power.
By the mid-90s it was time for my wake-up call. I discovered and started reading BP's world energy report. The forecast oil doomsday hadn't occurred, in fact there was a comfortable increase in the reserve numbers and the R/P (Reserve-to-Production) ratio had expanded to 40 years. It was beginning to look like this wasn't going to be a problem in my lifetime. The price of oil had crashed and headlines talked about an oil glut. All this extra oil was good news, but it looked as if, instead of counting our blessings at having another century or so of petro-chemical production, the US was hell-bent on burning it up in monstrous, wasteful trucks. What happened to the conservation programs? And when exactly were we going to start building nuclear plants? What about global warming?
About ten years later, I was debating energy issues with one of my greenie friends at dinner. While we both agreed on the need to kick the fossil fuel habit, her contention was that we could get all the energy we needed from renewable sources, whereas I was convinced that we needed nukes because renewables were a Hollywood eco-fantasy and that if you "did the math", you'd probably need a solar cell the size of the entire desert southwest to meet the energy needs of the US. She challenged me to prove that, so off I went to the web to do some research. In doing so, I found...
LifeAfterTheOilCrash (LATOC), Matt Savinar's oil doomsday site. It knocked me out of my chair. Everything I had believed for over 30 years was true, only it was worse than I thought! I had thought that even though we appeared to be stupidly squandering our fossil resources instead of switching to new energy sources, we still had, well, 40 more years to get our act together. But I had foolishly assumed that we could keep producing oil at today's rate until we got close to the end, at which point there would be a steep drop to zero. In fact, though, it was much more likely that a gradual decline in production would set in well before the end, and that while the oil would never completely "run out", production levels far below the ones needed to keep our present technology running would be devastating. Doh!
That's like finding out that the exam you haven't studied for is being given tomorrow morning. But that wasn't the worst of it. LATOC makes the case that it's too late to switch to new energy sources because the effort of switching will itself take energy, energy we won't have as oil production declines. LATOC also argues that we can't get enough energy from the alternatives to power our civilization at current levels. It knocks them down one by one. In short, too little, too late, to save technological civilization. But that still wasn't the worst of it. LATOC makes the point that the so-called green revolution that has enabled us to feed the world's booming population is entirely based on fossil fuels. As bad as it would be to see technology collapse, the doomsday scenario had expanded in the blink of an eye to include a dieoff of billions of people due to either starvation, or wars over the world's dwindling resources.
I went into a black despair. I became a doomer (hence the pseudonym). Well, I was sort-of a doomer - sort-of, because I'm not one to just surrender to fate. I soon learned that there were at least two different types of doomers, the fatalists and the powerdowners. The fatalists figure you might as well bend over, put your head between your legs, and kiss your ass goodbye. The powerdowners seemed to view the end of industrial civilization as a good thing and are looking forward to some sort of new agrarian age, albeit one where lots of people have to die to make room for the survivors. It's a little hard to tell them apart, frankly. Powerdowners claim to have a plan to wind down civilization to sustainable levels. But the plan seems to involve lots of people dying, and most of the survivors becoming a new peasantry. If you like modern technology and don't like death, that plan is hard to distinguish from the doomsday itself. Plus, powerdowners are convinved a powerdown is inevitable after wars and such have played themselves out - thus, fatalists are powerdowners who are foolishly not getting ready. One thing they have in common is the inevitability of the end of modern life.
As I said, I'm not one to surrender to fate. I had to do something. At the very least I could warn people! I told friends and family. I joined an on-line discussion group. I started looking at my own lifestyle to see what I could do to reduce my energy consumption. There wasn't much - after all, I'd been aware of the depletion issue for 30 years. I don't drive much, and I don't use much electricity. I avoid disposable plastic stuff. I recycle everything. I got a motorcycle license and a small motorbike to cut my driving even more. I put compact fluoresent bulbs in the lights I use. I started looking for inefficient appliances to cut my power needs even more.
I also continued my research into energy alternatives. After all, I still hadn't answered my friend's question about how big a solar cell it would take to run the US (answer: for electricity alone, it would be about 1/7 the size of Nevada, according to one solar power site). What I found was encouraging. Renewable technologies had advanced considerably since the 1970s when I'd last looked. Wind turbines had emerged as the most cost-competitive technology, and were being built in Europe. Even solar cells were no longer energy-losers; you could get back the energy needed to make them in a few years and then get decades of free power from them afterwards. Fuels made from waste products, or crops grown specifically for fuel, were energy winners now, given the right feedstock. In particular, vegetable oils could be used in diesel engines, and produced with an energy payback of 3 for 1. Brazil was making a go of ethanol from sugar. Nuclear power still looked attractive, despite decades of Hollywood's best efforts to brainwash me. And there was still lots of coal (250 years worth at today's production levels in the US, because we're burning it up faster than we were before). I started wondering just how impossible it really was to switch from fossil energy sources to a combination of these alternatives using coal to bridge the gap, and I started finding flaws in the logic behind LATOC. In due course, I found four whoppers.
First, doomers tacitly assume that anything short of our current energy consumption level would be catastrophic. They also count as a shortage the expected growth in energy demand from industrializing countries like China and India, perversely using an expansion of modern civilization (that they don't believe can occur!) as further proof that it will collapse. Truth is, there is tremendous waste in our current use of energy. A trip to the grocery store is like going to a monster truck rally these days. Is it really necessary to drive a 5000 pound vehicle to buy groceries? To go anywhere? Huge amounts of food are wasted. In fact, a lot of food is grown to feed animals for meat, a very inefficient way to produce food. (I like meat - I just don't eat that much of it.) We could cut back a lot and not miss it. In an emergency, we could cut back even more, just like we did to win World War Two. It wouldn't be much fun, but it would be possible, and no one would have to starve.
Doomers usually respond to this by making the silly argument that conservation won't work because of something called Jevon's paradox. In 1865, Jevon, writing about coal resources in England, argued that improving the efficiency of use of a resource would only cause demand to increase for the resource as the price dropped. Ergo, conservation causes demand to go up and you run out anyway. Doomers are dead wrong about conservation, though. In fact, surprise, they're dead wrong about what Jevon actually said, too. In the 1970s, conservation efforts and efficiency improvements in cars alone made a big dent in oil usage, enough that you can see it in the world's oil production statistics. Europe made the changes permanent by using taxes to keep demand down. The US didn't, so when the bottom dropped out of oil prices in later decades, we went back to our wasteful ways. Europeans use roughly half the oil per person than the US does. This all proves two things: conservation can enable us to get along with less oil if we have to, and people respond in predictable ways to price changes. Doomers forget that Jevon's so-called paradox assumed that the resource in question was still abundant. But once it runs short, all bets are off. If oil production started falling, the price is not going to go down unless demand goes down even faster. Even Jevon predicted that the price of coal would soar eventually, as the resource became scare in the 1930s - doomers don't know or don't mention that. Incidentally, Jevon was wrong about the end of coal spelling doom for industrial England - he couldn't forsee the switch to oil.
The second flaw is in assuming that because we use oil to do something now, we have no other way to do it. In particular, doomers argue that none of the alternatives will work because they all require oil to implement. Wind farms and nuclear plants require oil to produce the materials they're made from, to transport the materials to the site, and to run construction equipment. Electric cars take oil to manufacture. Even coal mines need oil to run mining machinery. Once we run out of oil, we won't be able to do any of those things anymore, goes the argument. The most obvious problem with the argument is that while these activities require energy, the energy doesn't have to come from oil. We use oil for many of them now because it's cheap and convenient, but that doesn't mean we can't use another energy source when oil's no longer cheap or available. Another problem with this argument is that many of these activities don't even use oil now! They use electricity or natural gas (natural gas will also eventually start to run short, but most likely a decade after oil does). The final problem with the argument is that if things really do start to get as bad as LATOC would have you believe, building energy infrastructure will have much higher priority that most of our present transportation uses. In an all-out emergency, rationing could be implemented giving first priority to food production, energy infrastructure, and long-distance transportation of goods, especially food. The annual road trip to see Aunt Tilly and the annual vacation getaway to the Caribbean would be below the line.
The third flaw in the argument is a bit more subtle. It is the assumption that the energy required to switch to alternatives must come on top of what we are using energy for now, rather than instead of some of it. For example, Savinar argues that we won't have the energy to power a crash program of building efficient cars. This ignores the fact that we are already building cars, millions of them every year. The energy used to build them is already counted; the energy needed to build efficient cars doesn't just add to the total. It takes roughly the same energy to build an efficient car as an inefficient one. It would take 10-15 years to turn over the automobile fleet - it doesn't have to happen all at once. Another example: we are today using energy to expand the infrastructure associated with oil consumption, things like roads, airports, and shopping malls. If things get as bad as LATOC says, we won't need those things anymore. That energy and construction equipment could be used to build power plants instead.
The fourth flaw in the argument is even more subtle. Perhaps you've guessed it by now. Doomers argue that there is no energy source we can switch to that can take oil's place in modern civilization. That might or might not be true, but it's beside the point. No single energy source has to, provided we can put enough of the others together. LATOC and others knock down alternatives one by one. But if (for example) we can produce biodiesel from fuel crops, why can't that be used to run construction machinery to build power stations? I've come to believe that no single energy source will take oil's place, but rather that by combining all the ones we know about, we can put together a workable solution that will be good enough to last 200 years or more - enough time for our descendants to come up with something else, or, if they can't, to gradually reduce their numbers without letting anyone starve.
By now, I had become what the doomers call an optimist, defined as anyone who doesn't think a collapse and dieoff are inevitable. I prefer to think of myself as a realist. The real optimists think the peak in oil production won't happen for another 10-20 years. They could be right, but it almost doesn't matter because we need to act now either way. A later peak just means we have more breathing room to get our act together. It's like finding out that exam you haven't studied for was postponed a week - you still need to study for it, only now you don't have to pull an all-nighter cramming! I personally think we're at or very near peak production now, on a plateau that will probably not be enough to satisfy the newly industrializing countries while supporting our wasteful usage.
I began to see the doomer viewpoint for what it is: dogma. A dogma is something you have to believe, without questioning it. And I began to see the hidden agenda of the powerdowners, namely, to bring about their utopian vision of the neo-agrarian society, no doubt with themselves its leaders. They know that most people won't willingly accept a return to centuries past, because most people are like me. We like our modern first-world lives! Some of us wish more people in the world could have the same lifestyle, even if it means sharing what's available a bit better. But if people can be convinced that a powerdown is as unavoidable as gravity, they may bring it about simply by surrendering to it and not looking for alternatives. Scratch the surface of the powerdowner philosophy, and you'll find Marxism dressed up in radical environmentalism.
The doomers may or may not be correct about our inability to switch the energy basis of our civilization, but their case is far from proven. The mere fact that people are debating what to do shows that a lot of people (even the doomers) don't believe the future is totally out of our hands. The track record of doomsday forecasts is poor - no one can really know the future. The smug certaintly of the doomers that they've got all the answers is what finally shook me out from their midst. The doomers are right about one thing - fossil energy sources aren't going to see us through the 21rst century. But if we don't change course soon, the way forward isn't going to be an agrarian utopia. It will be powered, at least in the US and for the remainder of my life, by coal. The environmental effects of that (primarily sea level rise from global warming) aren't the legacy I want to leave to future generations.
If going back to the land is appealing to you, that's terrific! No one's stopping you, or any of the doomers either. In fact, it's a good thing to have people make some worst-case preperations, just in case the doomers are right. But if, like me, you think technological and industrial civilization is something worth preserving, then let's get to work. Don't be fooled by doomer technobabble. This stuff isn't really too hard for the average person to understand. Look for yourself. And not just at the self-serving prophets of doom, many of whom simply cite each other in a kind of circular support system. Check your prejudices at the door and actually look at sites from the nuclear power industry, renewable power advocates, and environmentalists. Sift them for biases to get to the facts. And keep thinking for yourself.
-- by Doctor Doom
peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/200...html
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 3:55 PM>>"The doomers may or may not be correct about our inability to switch the energy basis of our civilization, but their case is far from proven."<<
We may have a first here, Dan- a post by you, I can't find anything to disagree with. I have never thought peak oil will inevitably lead to catastrophe. All I have said that is that we need to be aware of it and work toward solutions to smooth the transition. The cultural climate in the US has been that cheap oil is our birthright and it is going to last forever. We need to have an energy policy that takes into account the true state of affairs regarding conventional, cheap oil and offers a reasonable road map into a different energy future. It seems right now that our political leaders are driving in the night with their headlights off. -
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 6:02 PM"We may have a first here, Dan- a post by you, I can't find anything to disagree with."
thank you. I have been working hard to get you to move a little toward the middle, thus rejecting the nutcase radicals present on this board.
"I have never thought peak oil will inevitably lead to catastrophe."
I am happy to hear this Rene, the sky is not falling down and our kids, should they not convert to atheism, should lead happy productive lives while driving their SUV's.
"All I have said that is that we need to be aware of it and work toward solutions to smooth the transition."
To me the biggest investment needs to be in nuclear power. Americans are irrationally fearful of this clean and almost limitless source of power, while the French have used it to the hilt.
"The cultural climate in the US has been that cheap oil is our birthright and it is going to last forever."
I don't feel this way, nor do I accept the hysteria over peak oil. I suspect that there is plenty of oil under the earth to last us hundreds of years, but I cannot prove it currently. If I am wrong, no worries, we will transition to other energy sources as oil becomes less attractive over time. I just hope it is America owns their own energy and we are not dependent upon foreign sources in the future.
"We need to have an energy policy that takes into account the true state of affairs regarding conventional, cheap oil and offers a reasonable road map into a different energy future. It seems right now that our political leaders are driving in the night with their headlights off."
Politicians always do this. Yet we are foolishly investing in ethanol which is a complete waste of tax payer money. There is still plenty of oil for many years to come and enough coal (as a back up) should we need cheap energy as well as natural gas. What we need are more nuclear plants. That is an investment I would get behind. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 8:10 PM>>"To me the biggest investment needs to be in nuclear power."<<
It is kind of funny that you should say this because the real point of Hubbert's 1956 paper was to push nuclear power.
>>"Yet we are foolishly investing in ethanol which is a complete waste of tax payer money."<<
I agree and so does "Time" magazine. They have this on their front cover this week and a big article on why pushing corn based ethanol is foolish.
>>"What we need are more nuclear plants."<<
This probably won't happen. The reaction to Three Mile Island killed the nuclear industry. I had a friend who was a nuclear engineer, got a job in a reactor under construction, but it all fell apart after Three Mile Island and he was forced to go on to another occupation. Even if the country got behind nuclear energy, I wonder if they could scare up enough trained people to make it happen. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 7:03 AMIt would be hard to get behind nuclear power without solving one very major problem. What to do with the waste. Every power plane in this country today has waste that should have been moved to long term storage decades ago. Every plant is at capacity or above capacity for very hazardous waste. The storage facility in Yuca Flats is not open and most probably will never open. Any new plant will face the same problem. Without a place to store the waste nuclear power is not viable in the US. The fact that the waste has accumulated has also made the power generated by nuclear way too cheap. The industry does not have to pay for cleaning up the waste or moving it. The costs will once again fall on the tax payers. As a tax payer I would rather subsidize a cleaner energy source than nuclear energy. To be really capitalist about it let’s charge the nuclear power companies the full cost of opening Yuca Flats, Have them pay full costs for transport, insurance for accidents, and the clean up around their plants. Factor this into the cost of nuclear power and it won’t be “too cheap to meter” anymore. Then the consumers can make an informed decision about power based on a true power bill. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Sat, March 29, 2008 - 9:46 AM>>"The storage facility in Yuca Flats is not open and most probably will never open."<<
The Yucca mountain facility should have been opened ten years ago. There are no real reasons to delay it further or not open it. The push to do this died because nuclear power become politically unpopular and there have been no new plants in the US for many decades. There are other equally safe options to Yucca mountain, such as the WIPP site near Carlsbad, New Mexico that could isolate the waste in thousands of feet thick salt deposits. The reasons these things have not been pursued are political and not scientific. I visited the WIPP site near Carlsbad and I know a lot about the geology of this area, having studied it for 30 years as a petroleum geologist. I think it is safe to say, that the chances of any contamination of the surrounding environment from the WIPP plant in New Mexico are essentially zero. I know less about Yucca mountain, but have read a few reports and articles. The same seems to be true there. All the concerns are totally overblown. I believe transport to these sites can also be safely achieved. Ultimately, there are no real reasons not to pursue nuclear power. The only reason we are not is because a lot of ignorant people are scared about a lot of things they don't really understand. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 1:59 PM>>>>>>>>>>The Yucca mountain facility should have been opened ten years ago. There are no real reasons to delay it further or not open it.
There are many fissures at Yucca Mountain. The main reason the nuclear industry wants to open it is because it is a way to get around a loophole that would allow nuclear plants to be built once there is a place for the waste. WIPP is beyond my knowledge.
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 8:06 AM"What to do with the waste.?"
the short answer is to do what France does, recycle it! The waste can be used again to produce even more energy as this article demonstrates:
www.nmcco.com/education/f...ste_home.htm
This animation demonstrates with nuclear energy is completely safe:
www.nmcco.com/education/f...at_makes.htm
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 6:54 AM"This probably won't happen. The reaction to Three Mile Island killed the nuclear industry."
yes, and this demonstrates the irrationality of the left. 3 mile Island was no Chernoble. U.S. safety measures at more than adequate to protect us. The benefits outweigh the risks.
"I had a friend who was a nuclear engineer, got a job in a reactor under construction, but it all fell apart after Three Mile Island and he was forced to go on to another occupation. Even if the country got behind nuclear energy, I wonder if they could scare up enough trained people to make it happen."
I think the first step is getting more people behind nuclear power. I have no doubt that American nuclear scientists can rise to the ocasion once called upon.
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 8:16 PM>>"our kids, should they not convert to atheism, should lead happy productive lives"<<
...so you think atheists don't lead happy, productive lives? There is really no evidence for this, particularly in my own personal experience. Also, I don't think conversion is a term that apples to non-belief. It is more of a simple realization that certain concepts are baseless and not really worthy of any further consideration. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, March 28, 2008 - 11:26 PMThat is a first to me. Most athiest that I know are pretty happy. Christians have to lie about atheist being unhappy because it will burst their bubble.
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 7:08 AM"That is a first to me. Most athiest that I know are pretty happy. Christians have to lie about atheist being unhappy because it will burst their bubble."
Here are more facts regarding the benefits of religious faith over non faith beliefs (i.e. atheism)
1. Longevity: People with religious faith live seven years longer. I suppose this may not be seen as a benefit if you're a fat, lonely atheist with a drug problem.
2. Psychological health: People with religious faith suffer less depression, are less likely to require medication for mental illness and are far less likely to kill themselves.
3. Evolutionary fitness: People with religious faith are more likely to marry, more likely to have children and have more children.
4. Happiness: People with religious faith are happier.
5. Health: People with religious faith are less likely to be obese. They also recover from surgery faster.
6. Sex: People with religious faith are more content with their sex lives.
7. Art: Religion inspires better, longer-lasting art than non-religious inspirations.
8. Good government: religious regimes are far less likely to murder large quantities of the citizenry than non-religious regimes, much less atheist regimes.
I will post this and the relevent studies on "heated debate" next week after returning from my vacation in Mexico. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Sun, March 30, 2008 - 2:19 PM>>>>>>>>1. Longevity:
OK that may be true, but it isn't a measure of happiness.
>>>>>>>>2. Psychological health: People with religious faith suffer less depression, are less likely to require medication for mental illness and are far less likely to kill themselves.
This is without taking into account self selection; anything that has self selection would be considered invalid by they psychological >>>>>>>>>community. Suicide, well yes atheist are more likely to kill themselves, but that again has to do with self selection, as suicide is not a measure of depression.
>>>>>>>>>3. Evolutionary fitness: People with religious faith are more likely to marry, more likely to have children and have more children.
And your point?
>>>>>>>>>>. Happiness: People with religious faith are happier.
A redundent argument which deserves a redundent answer. #2 has my answer.
>>>>>>>>>5. Health: People with religious faith are less likely to be obese. They also recover from surgery faster.
And how did you arive at that?
>>>>>>>>>6. Sex: People with religious faith are more content with their sex lives.
Another redundancy to #2 and therefore deserves a redundent answer.
>>>>>>>>>7. Art: Religion inspires better, longer-lasting art than non-religious inspirations.
No.
>>>>>>>>>8. Good government: religious regimes are far less likely to murder large quantities of the citizenry than non-religious regimes, much less atheist regimes.
Aside from Stalin, there aren't many atheist regimes to compare to, the Tzarist regimes before were no less deadly. The Catholic Church has killed millions of people, as well as Muslim counties and many other countries. Hitler was also very deadly.
Crime rates are also lower in countries that have a higher atheist population.
But item 8 is an argument that strays from your original point.
Also, this is an oil peak tribe, not a religious tribe. -
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 10:39 PMfor the most part, you have simply agreed with my assertions, while basically stating they are irrelevent.
"Aside from Stalin, there aren't many atheist regimes to compare to, the Tzarist regimes before were no less deadly. The Catholic Church has killed millions of people, as well as Muslim counties and many other countries. Hitler was also very deadly."
You simply have no knowledge of history. Try documenting a legitimate source proving the catholic church has killed millions of people. This assertion is a popular atheist myth. The catholics, which I am not one, killed about 10,000 people in the spanish inquisition as compared to over 100 million people killed by atheist regimes of the last Century. Now close your eyes and try to consider that number for just a moment. And then consider that Stalin and Mao (lessor atheist murderers were Pol Pot and Enver Hoxha) were both ardent atheist evolutionists. Now avoid the knee jerk reaction of trying to classify them as something other than what they were, which is atheist. They were atheists, their minions were atheists, their schools were atheists and most of their "church" leaders were atheist puppets. Now again, think about 100 million people losing their lives and then try not to feel embarrassed for calling yourself an atheist, which is the most despicable belief system on earth.
"Crime rates are also lower in countries that have a higher atheist population."
yeah right, because murdering innocents in atheist countries is not against the law!
"But item 8 is an argument that strays from your original point.
Also, this is an oil peak tribe, not a religious tribe."
correct, and I was not the person to first stray from this point. But everything always goes back to our world views now doesn't it?
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 6:44 AM>>"Here are more facts regarding the benefits of religious faith over non faith beliefs"<<
Of course, none of this is true, but let us suppose it were true? What does it say about human beings- that they require some fantasy to be happy and live longer. Why is reality not sufficient? -
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 3, 2008 - 10:24 PMthe fact that Christianity works and atheism doesn't is powerful evidence of its truthfulness and why so many have embraced its truth. But it is not the only reason why Christianity is vastly superior. You cling to a silly lie and must suffer the consequences of your folly. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, April 4, 2008 - 9:43 PMAnd how does this relate to the peak oil discussion? -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 1:09 PMMaybe there is a relationship between reliance on oil and reliance on religion? -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 2:42 PMDing! You win the prize.
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 8:38 PMThe US should be focused on several things.. that will give us energy independence(oil and otherwise)
The government should be using tax incentives(with attached mandates) to increase all vehicles fuel
economy (double to triple current mpg) including retrofitting current vehicles. Also we should convert certain
portions of our vehicles to natural gas to lower demand (mandated). Forget ethanol it cost more energy that is produces.
Coal can be converted to synthetic oil and the to gasoline... Garbage can be processed in to crude oil
that be used to make plastics therefore reducing pressure on the free market. The country could supply tax credits
or incentive checks that had the goal of having at least 2 solar panels on ever home in US. At least 12 new Nuclear power
should be built in the next 7 years. Solar power plants, ocean wave collector,etc built in multiple areas.
Hydrogen power cell research should be researched then put in place while the above is being enacted.
Also small passenger diesel converted to burned wasted oils.. to name a few because no one solution is a fix all but several solution strung together can become a working chain the move us in the right direction.....
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 7, 2008 - 10:33 PMMany of your ideas are good but here is a couple of remarks I should make.
Coal would only be a short term fix. You might be thinking of the estimate that says we got 200 years or so, but that is under the assumption that demand doesn't increase, and demand has already increased to recover from the loss of oil, and increase in population world wide. There are still environmental concerns about coal, including "clean" coal as pollutants still pose a problem.
All the substitutes that you mentioned, and there are additional ones that will never totally make up for the loss of oil.
The bottom line is that not only do we need more efficient cars and so forth, we need to live differently than what we have been accustomed to for the last 90 years.
Somethings that can't be substituted are fertilizers and pesticides, which we have grown dependent on and was supposed to have solved world hunger. Instead the population exploded and famines are already becoming a problem because of diminishing oil. To add insult to injury, ethonol is using land that could have been used to grow food, and is causing rain forest to be cut down faster.
Hydrogen will be nice, but it doesn't look all that promising, at least not yet, due to many of it's own limitations and energy use in making and storing it. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 8:17 AMIt really nice the work that Dan has done for this tribe group subject. Due to his false arguments attempting to prove christianity conservative closed mind theory on everything, as actually caused me to continue to come to this website and learn more. Good work Dan! Because of you I believe in the Peak Oil theory more, when normally I would be more interested in other things. I also learned many things I didnt know about our world, and many things about closed minded christians.
Dan, I heard some conservative christians tell me the other day, "there is no Global warming, see its cold outside, maybe its global cooling..." After this statement I knew that to explain the truth to their little minds was pointless because it does appear like an irony, and the answer I would give them would perplex their closed minds, plus most closed minded christians never listen, never will listen, and they/you arnt listening now. Actually most humans regardless of religious dogma dont listen... -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Tue, April 8, 2008 - 9:03 AMThat was something that I have noticed after a while was that this tribe had little action. But when Dan came in with with propaganda that was so bad that you think that the National Enquirer would have more credibility, it was often had become a source of my amusement to see what was brought here. I've noticed that most conservatives don't even bother with the WND because it is hard to take seriously. -
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 1:15 PMWND is a great news site, one of the most popular in the world. I have never polled conservatives as to what they think of it but it has had a major impact, breaking a large number of stories which mainline news media have missed or ignored. So your opinion that it is nothing more than the "enquirer" is as falacious as most of the arguments you have advanced here and elsewhere. I mean, do you really expect to be taken seriously with your child like tactics of trying to drown me out with ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ's? Get real man:-) -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 12:44 PMYour still boring.
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 1:11 PMI am glad I could help Moki! Creating discussion and making people think is my specialty:-) I have heard ignorant things spouted from Christians, to be sure, but I have heard ignorant and irrational things spouted from non Christians as well. In truth, we are not rational people (just note how many people buy new cars)! We have to work at it. I believe I have supported the notion that the main argument of the peak oil crowd is based upon irrationality. That you don't see this might mean you are wedded to dogma, not rational thought. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 3:56 PMnice, I like that responce, dan. Thank you, good points, and argue on... -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 6:04 PMSo you think that your alt is response well. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 7:56 PMI wasnt going to get him going anymore, I still dont like dogma from conservative christian groups. But he can say what he wants, I still think he is wrong because the facts are that we have too much need for oil, its being used to fast, and eventually it will run out. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 10:04 PMOK, I will grant you that. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 7:55 AMGrant what? Hey ted, you ever been to buringman? I am good friends with lady bee and larry, from the diox group... Tom Gallagher -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 8:45 AM>>>>>>>>>>>Grant what?
I just didn't know where you were coming from until you clarified. Sorry that I accused you of making an alt.
I haven't been to Burning Man. Partially because my partner doesn't like the idea of going. I think it would be cool to go. -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 8:00 AMDefinitly something to see, at least once. But be carefull its like a pringles potatochip.
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 1:00 AM"I wasnt going to get him going anymore, I still dont like dogma from conservative christian groups."
thank you for exposing your bias, but it is irrelevent to this discussion.
"But he can say what he wants"
thank you!
"I still think he is wrong because the facts are that we have too much need for oil, its being used to fast, and eventually it will run out."
facts, or beliefs? You need to learn to separate the two. How much need is too much? How fast is "too fast"? How long is "eventually"? Have you set your car aside and ride only a bicycle? The evidence is that Peak Oil is a "crisis of the mind". We are not running out of oil, but I will let you know when we are:-) -
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Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 1:18 AMglad to know I have you to let me know when its too late to make things better.
christianity is all about fear of evil or your devil.
so a little fear can go a long way to create a solution, instead of waiting till we know for a fact beyond scientific proof that we are now out of oil when you will finially tell me the shit has hit the fan.
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Unsu...
Re: Confessions of an Ex Doomer!
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 7:59 AM"glad to know I have you to let me know when its too late to make things better. "
np
"christianity is all about fear of evil or your devil."
clearly, you know little to nothing about Christianity
"so a little fear can go a long way to create a solution, instead of waiting till we know for a fact beyond scientific proof that we are now out of oil when you will finially tell me the shit has hit the fan."
first you eschew fear, then you embrace it. You need to make up your mind. Will you walk around in irrational fear, or will you reject fear for optimism based upon rational historical precident and human ingenuity?
There is no proof that we are running out of oil. Hubbert was wrong about world peak oil. Furthermore, clean, safe nuclear energy is available in abundance in unlimited supply. Your childrens childrens children will have abundant energy. (Hubbert foolishly recommended expensive solar energy as the solution, he was nuts)
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